"More and more, Christianity is becoming marginalized in our culture. Most people believe that Christian faith is irrelevant to the realities of life."
I stopped here, because -- frankly -- this is one of my buttons. I don't foist my religion on others; I don't want others' religion foisted on me.
I'll stop there, though, 'cause it just gets rantier from here on in. ;)
I guess I read it with a different focus, and I'm certainly sorry if you thought I was trying to foist my religion on you.
To me, the article was about what's wrong with pointing fingers and telling others that they're going to hell, when there's so much wrong within the Church itself.
And the quote you have above reads-- again, to me-- as part of the author's argument that Christians don't do what the Bible says they should do-- and if they did, they'd get a lot more respect.
Because, you know, Christians then wouldn't be flaming idiot, conservative right wing assholes who are going on about how the sanctity of our own marriages is threatened by gay marriage, or a million other things which Christians (a group I count myself as part of) do.
Foisting? Naw, naw. /You/ certainly weren't, madam. My verymost contrite apologies if that sounded like a personal attack on you.
To my ears -- my very biased ears -- the fellow apologizing that Christianity/The Church(tm) is in such a shambles that the whole world doesn't want to be Christian anymore was doing the foisting.
The proselytizing(sp?), the seemingly ingrained determination to make the whole world Christian, is what makes me twitchy. (Actually, I find it making me terribly angry, so I am wondering if I should post this at all...)
The part that caught my eye in the passage I italicized was the 'marginalized' part. I read this and hear: "Oh no! Christianity isn't everywhere anymore! Western Civilization is losing a grip on Good Christian Values(tm)!"
"Good riddance," is my immediate reaction, promptly followed by god-I'm-a-bigot guilt because I, yanno, know several wonderful people who are deeply Christian.
Blah. I dunno. It's such a complex issue, and I've got various Recovering Catholic(tm) issues I'm still hashing out between me and myself, so, well. Read this all knowing I wrassle with a fairly ugly anti-Christianity streak on regular occasion.
(Seventeenth and last, more apologies if my original comment read as a personal attack. 'Twasn't meant in the slightest.)
I know what you mean.. I.. rankle at Christian faith.. in a way that I don't think I can describe. I know that.. just knowing someone is a christian.. makes me twitch.. because to me.. Christianity is a shining example of intolerance, and hatred.. and not how I want to live my life.
I think I agree most with Ghandi.. I like your Christ.. but not your christians.
His post.. didn't seem really like an apology, and more as an attempt to Prophetelize the world.. and make "everyone see the light of Christianity."
If ever I feel like someone's pushing something (religion, sociology, whatnot) on me, I stop and think: Is this because they're living their life, or living mine? I can't blame someone for doing one of the two, and sometimes I, too, get a bit sensitive about it when religion is involved.
Even so, I read the objected-to phrase as meaning, "It sucks to belong to a group that is being painted more and more negative." I can't argue with that sentiment, regardless of who's saying it.
There's a lot I'd want to say in response to this article, and I can't do it. I mean, I can't do it succinctly, and I refuse to do it over multiple messages, especially since each block can only be 4k and I should be doing more work here instead.
This is the sort of thing I'd rather discuss. It's been a long while since I really examined my own religious(ish) points of view anyway; the majority of my friends are anywhere from middling agnostic to outright atheist.
(The short form is that I can appreciate what's written in the article, but I beg to differ with the author on so many levels that it actually is funny.)
What I love about this article is it lays forth, cogently, the reasons that I am a Christian, and yet I hate the Church.
As with many people who try to articulate their views on difficult topics like this one, I've consistently been unable to put forth-- in a manner that doesn't include crying, spewing forth venom, or ranting-- the way I feel about organized religion, specifically the religion I've chosen to belong to.
So I appreciate this article for that reason, and I'd love to discuss the bits where we differ; I'm not much of one for heated debate, though.
Well, that's not true. I mean, I can do the whole pounding-on-the-podium, My-Honourable-Opponent-is-a-Poophead kind of "debate". I just like the conflict more than the discussion, but I only do this when I know the other person is wrong anyway (which is why I reserve it for objective topics in other fora).
I vastly prefer discussion, though. It's more of the sort of thing that works well with a glass of wine and a lot of time free of distractions. Here, I readily admit that it's a fairly subjective topic, and it's something I've not given a lot of thought to.
Well, we're a long way from each other, so I'll try to jot off something for an e-mail over the next few days and send it your way.
I want the discussion! Can we not have it here and use cut tags?
My first thought, reading these replies: we have to realize that there are all kinds of Christians. -Some of them are doing it right (i.e. striving to live by Christ's loving, tolerant, forgiving, gracious, excruciatingly difficult example), and there is real beauty in that, and value. The entire universe is made better by these people, no matter what faiths populate the rest of the world. -Some of them merely believe (very strongly) that they're doing it right, and they are simply the louder voice right now. -Some of them are confused. -Most don't truly know their own religion. To bash Christianity as a whole is throwing the baby out with the bathwater -- and an unkind, shallow thing to do. It is not Christianity that has hurt you, but acts done by "Christians" or in the name of Christ. Just like Islam itself isn't subjugating women and blowing people up. If we do not understand this we do not heal.
The problem I face--and I've encountered this before--is that these replies may only be 4k long. That might be a daunting lot of room for some people, but it's a serious hassle for me. I can easily fill that up; one of my replies to a fellow had to be broken over three separate messages because I simply wrote that much.
I'm still trying to let everything settle down in my mind before I go off, half-cocked. I mean, if I'm going to impose an essay of my own on somebody, I want it to actually have it reflect some genuine thought, not a rambling internal monologue.
It's going to be an interesting topic to me, though. Christianity has become such a minefield.
This is a *great* idea, and I hope that it'll be a good discussion.
What Keet said is something I agree with-- but it took me a long time to write that, because I was struck by this last sentence.
"If we do not understand this we do not heal."
All the years of indoctrinated churchiness made my initial reaction one of vehemence. Heal? Who needs to heal? You don't need to HEAL because of my Christianity.
It took me most of today, wrestling with this, to be able to write this.
Yes, we do need to heal. Non-Christians and Christians alike.
We Christians need it very badly, as a matter of fact.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
momijizukamori
no subject
Date: 2005-04-24 08:01 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-04-24 08:19 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-04-24 09:17 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-04-25 01:38 pm (UTC)I stopped here, because -- frankly -- this is one of my buttons. I don't foist my religion on others; I don't want others' religion foisted on me.
I'll stop there, though, 'cause it just gets rantier from here on in. ;)
no subject
Date: 2005-04-25 07:48 pm (UTC)I guess I read it with a different focus, and I'm certainly sorry if you thought I was trying to foist my religion on you.
To me, the article was about what's wrong with pointing fingers and telling others that they're going to hell, when there's so much wrong within the Church itself.
And the quote you have above reads-- again, to me-- as part of the author's argument that Christians don't do what the Bible says they should do-- and if they did, they'd get a lot more respect.
Because, you know, Christians then wouldn't be flaming idiot, conservative right wing assholes who are going on about how the sanctity of our own marriages is threatened by gay marriage, or a million other things which Christians (a group I count myself as part of) do.
no subject
Date: 2005-04-25 08:36 pm (UTC)To my ears -- my very biased ears -- the fellow apologizing that Christianity/The Church(tm) is in such a shambles that the whole world doesn't want to be Christian anymore was doing the foisting.
The proselytizing(sp?), the seemingly ingrained determination to make the whole world Christian, is what makes me twitchy. (Actually, I find it making me terribly angry, so I am wondering if I should post this at all...)
The part that caught my eye in the passage I italicized was the 'marginalized' part. I read this and hear: "Oh no! Christianity isn't everywhere anymore! Western Civilization is losing a grip on Good Christian Values(tm)!"
"Good riddance," is my immediate reaction, promptly followed by god-I'm-a-bigot guilt because I, yanno, know several wonderful people who are deeply Christian.
Blah. I dunno. It's such a complex issue, and I've got various Recovering Catholic(tm) issues I'm still hashing out between me and myself, so, well. Read this all knowing I wrassle with a fairly ugly anti-Christianity streak on regular occasion.
(Seventeenth and last, more apologies if my original comment read as a personal attack. 'Twasn't meant in the slightest.)
no subject
Date: 2005-04-25 09:56 pm (UTC)I think I agree most with Ghandi.. I like your Christ.. but not your christians.
His post.. didn't seem really like an apology, and more as an attempt to Prophetelize the world.. and make "everyone see the light of Christianity."
Foist, Hoist, Hoity-Toity
Date: 2005-05-16 09:58 pm (UTC)Even so, I read the objected-to phrase as meaning, "It sucks to belong to a group that is being painted more and more negative." I can't argue with that sentiment, regardless of who's saying it.
- jenkins
Actually...
Date: 2005-04-25 04:01 pm (UTC)There's a lot I'd want to say in response to this article, and I can't do it. I mean, I can't do it succinctly, and I refuse to do it over multiple messages, especially since each block can only be 4k and I should be doing more work here instead.
This is the sort of thing I'd rather discuss. It's been a long while since I really examined my own religious(ish) points of view anyway; the majority of my friends are anywhere from middling agnostic to outright atheist.
(The short form is that I can appreciate what's written in the article, but I beg to differ with the author on so many levels that it actually is funny.)
Re: Actually...
Date: 2005-04-25 06:24 pm (UTC)What I love about this article is it lays forth, cogently, the reasons that I am a Christian, and yet I hate the Church.
As with many people who try to articulate their views on difficult topics like this one, I've consistently been unable to put forth-- in a manner that doesn't include crying, spewing forth venom, or ranting-- the way I feel about organized religion, specifically the religion I've chosen to belong to.
So I appreciate this article for that reason, and I'd love to discuss the bits where we differ; I'm not much of one for heated debate, though.
Awesome.
Date: 2005-04-25 07:03 pm (UTC)Well, that's not true. I mean, I can do the whole pounding-on-the-podium, My-Honourable-Opponent-is-a-Poophead kind of "debate". I just like the conflict more than the discussion, but I only do this when I know the other person is wrong anyway (which is why I reserve it for objective topics in other fora).
I vastly prefer discussion, though. It's more of the sort of thing that works well with a glass of wine and a lot of time free of distractions. Here, I readily admit that it's a fairly subjective topic, and it's something I've not given a lot of thought to.
Well, we're a long way from each other, so I'll try to jot off something for an e-mail over the next few days and send it your way.
Re: Awesome.
Date: 2005-04-26 11:06 am (UTC)My first thought, reading these replies: we have to realize that there are all kinds of Christians.
-Some of them are doing it right (i.e. striving to live by Christ's loving, tolerant, forgiving, gracious, excruciatingly difficult example), and there is real beauty in that, and value. The entire universe is made better by these people, no matter what faiths populate the rest of the world.
-Some of them merely believe (very strongly) that they're doing it right, and they are simply the louder voice right now.
-Some of them are confused.
-Most don't truly know their own religion.
To bash Christianity as a whole is throwing the baby out with the bathwater -- and an unkind, shallow thing to do. It is not Christianity that has hurt you, but acts done by "Christians" or in the name of Christ. Just like Islam itself isn't subjugating women and blowing people up. If we do not understand this we do not heal.
Thanks.
Date: 2005-04-26 05:30 pm (UTC)The problem I face--and I've encountered this before--is that these replies may only be 4k long. That might be a daunting lot of room for some people, but it's a serious hassle for me. I can easily fill that up; one of my replies to a fellow had to be broken over three separate messages because I simply wrote that much.
I'm still trying to let everything settle down in my mind before I go off, half-cocked. I mean, if I'm going to impose an essay of my own on somebody, I want it to actually have it reflect some genuine thought, not a rambling internal monologue.
It's going to be an interesting topic to me, though. Christianity has become such a minefield.
Re: Awesome.
Date: 2005-04-26 10:28 pm (UTC)What Keet said is something I agree with-- but it took me a long time to write that, because I was struck by this last sentence.
"If we do not understand this we do not heal."
All the years of indoctrinated churchiness made my initial reaction one of vehemence. Heal? Who needs to heal? You don't need to HEAL because of my Christianity.
It took me most of today, wrestling with this, to be able to write this.
Yes, we do need to heal. Non-Christians and Christians alike.
We Christians need it very badly, as a matter of fact.
Very very badly indeed.